今天溫哥華神的教會終於開了一塲"2-5事件發佈會"

今天溫哥華神的教會終於開了一塲"2-5事件發佈會"

#0, by vancouverjoe, 25 April 2010 10:46 PM

但只是給還未離開"溫哥華神的教會"的弟兄姊妹
就算是我們一群己離開的是被國語團的弟兄姊妹邀請而來
最後也只能在大堂等待

#1, by vancouverjoe, 25 April 2010 10:50 PM

最好笑的就是 Security Guards 居然是一群香港和星馬的長老
但我可以証明他們也只是很有禮貌地告訴我們不能進入

#2, by vancouverjoe, 25 April 2010 10:52 PM

.............................
不知香港將會有甚麼事發生....


#3, by chenguang, 25 April 2010 11:44 PM

今天温哥华国语团的弟兄姐妹终于看到了2/5事件的再次演绎，文化大革命的再版。

#4, by truelies, 26 April 2010 12:01 AM

實在是太不公義的審訊
湘文對一班已離開b/s的質問無言以對, 就像小孩做錯事的時候...
Fish更要不得, 說這個閉門審訊是他處事**原則**, 是他們內部的事, 已離開b/s無權參與。難道一起聚會20-30年的b/s真的是外人嗎? 說了三四句就轉身走了, 說自己很忙, 還說任由你們怎麼說我也好。意思就是說我不會聽你的, 我己一意孤行。
可憐的海山再單獨面對一羣不公義b/s的審訊...




#5, by petitmen, 26 April 2010 12:31 AM

這一天,我深深的體會主耶穌在地上的感受, ＂他到自己的地方來,自己的人倒不接待他。＂
又想起今天溫哥華的帶領們好像約翰一書所寫的：我們若說是與神相交、卻仍在黑暗裏行,這就是說謊話、不行真理了。


#6, by chenguang, 26 April 2010 01:15 AM

教会的教导是全面的看问题，不能只听单方面的，因此晨光团的弟兄姐妹要求教会有一次公开的说明，且2/5事件的见证者都可以有说明事件的权利，可是今天的说明会让晨光团的弟兄姐妹彻底失望了。首先我们邀请来的一群已离开的弟兄姐妹（其中也包括2/5事件的见证者）被守在门口的弟兄阻挡，不得参加这个说明会，连听都不允许，其次，当海山第一次上去做说明时，麦克风立刻被关闭，我们坐在下面什么都听不到，而奇怪的是紧接着当湘文上来讲话时麦克风马上又恢复正常。并且出来说明的弟兄姐妹都是教会预先安排好的，国语组也有一位姐妹向湘文要求发言，却别拒绝，整个现场的气氛根本就是一边倒没有公平可言，被教会安排的弟兄姐妹一个接一个的上来批评海山，简直成了审判大会，关键是“被告方”海山还不能有辩护人。我们晨光团的弟兄姐妹原本还对教会，对余弟兄，对湘文抱有一线希望，觉得他们经过两年的思考应该能处理好这件事，但今天的所见所闻让我们伤透了心，其中更看不到教会应有的爱，包容，公义和公平。海山固然有错，但他已公开认错道歉了，教会为什么还要置人于死地，不把他踢出教会不罢休？难道这是教会，是一个基督徒该有的态度吗？事情发展到今天的地步，教会难道没有一点责任吗？余弟兄，湘文，你们为什么不先从自己开始反省以一下，教会有没有做错的地方。我们为每一个离开的弟兄姐妹而难过，她们爱教会，同样也曾为教会付出了很多，但今天回来时却被拒之门外达3个小时之久，教会还有没有公义？如果说海山没有先个别和信莲沟通就公开指责是违反圣经的话，那两年前的几次聚会中包括今天出来指责海山的弟兄姐妹你们每一个有没有事先和海山就你们所说的问题有过个别的沟通？如果没有，那你们直接在聚会上公开批评海山不也是违背圣经了吗？你们明知海山做错了，却还要犯同样的错，这不是错上加错吗，不要只看到别人眼中的刺，却看不到自己眼中的梁木。另外，我们认为信莲是2/5事件的主要当事人，那么身为她丈夫的湘文在处理过程中就应该回避，不然容易绊倒别人。今天晨光团的很多弟兄姐妹也都流泪了，我们伤心的是我们所爱的这个家已经失去了往日的温暖，我们所信靠的这个教会已经变成了一言堂，任何质疑和不同意见都是被魔鬼利用成了毁谤余弟兄的证据，教会对此事的处理方式和态度深深的伤害了我们，这样的教会还有希望吗？


#7, by chenguang, 26 April 2010 01:26 AM

我们国语组的弟兄姐妹支持海山，因为他有勇气敢于出来面对自己的错误和别人的批评，我们也敬佩那班离开的弟兄姐妹，因为他们不畏权势敢于说真话捍卫真理。



#8, by towards2lord, 26 April 2010 01:31 AM

FISH今次又棋差一著啦，既然出左去既bs都黎左，又點可以咁無禮貌，距人於門外？佢地夜訪海山，海山都無咁對佢地啦！仲有呢件事係發生喺佢地仍喺當中既時候，咁咪有權聽囉！另外，FISH只係交代左兩句就走,咁都得？嗰班長老唔知成件事係佢攪出黎架咩，咁做即係不負責任啫！而且態度都好傲謾噃！難怪佢成日比人撻伐！大家準備一下，準備隨時打屬公義戰！幾時開戰？睇佢地係香港點樣對付佢地三個。不過，係呢度想澄清一件事，就係無論邊個遇到咁樣不公義既事，我地都會企出黎。
長老團，你地點樣可以容讓咁唔公義既事再發生呢？你地要忍耐ＦＩＳＨ咁不負責任既行為到幾時呢？你地成日話長老治會，點解容讓FISH唔係長老，佢既意願、權力可以凌駕係你地班長老之上？你地係服侍主定服侍佢，唔通您地都認同唔認同佢就係唔認同主咩？你地被按立做長老時講過MUD，唔通唔記得哂咩？如果你地已經無哂良知同立場，不如落台啦！返屋企早抖好啦！志誠，您口口聲聲叫人地尊長，咁您教下FISH同班長老、同工，尊重一下溫哥華教會的開荒牛先，你地點對佢地呀？其實你只係提出左尊長，但唔通忘記左要”愛幼”咩？你地班長老同帶領，有無盡責任愛幼？連我地屬靈程度係點，您地都唔知，點做帶領呀？就算甜美日程係好，但有人吞唔落，你地唔去幫佢吞得落，成日話佢地無用，MUD係咁做大個架咩？唔通ＢＢ食唔到糙米飯，我地死都要佢地咩？你地唔去深究問題，反而指控個ＢＢ無用，佢地去隔離屋食翻米糊就話佢犯罪，咁樣既結局係邊個做成先？三歲既小子都識分啦！唔通你地連三歲既都不如？仲有，過去既長老裏邊，有連自己屋企都理唔好，仲有面出黎處理人地，不如返屋企攪好個家先啦。點樣說服眾多肢體呀？

溫哥華仍有良知既肢體，既然係咁，佢地行不義，無好榜樣，多次表示無左我地都得，不如跟廣東話團走啦，睇下佢地點樣面對主，呢隻鑊，唔好同佢地一齊揹啦！
香港肢體都係咁，一唔好再奉獻，連分享都唔好再交比教會，要比不如直接交比目標人物啦，以免到時有人發窮惡，連分享都用埋，真正有需要既就得唔到幫助！睇黎，此地都係不宜欠留啦！大家早搵出路啦！如果係香港佢地有吉士咁樣做，我睇到時佢地可能要出動警察至以離開。到時，再唔係網上傾下，而係又見報啦。不過，就此一時不同彼一時啦！以前係意氣風發，而家係過街老鼠！真可憐！
各位，呢度唔係我地留架啦，起身走啦！要挽回也太遲啦！唔會好得幾耐。如果佢地唔咁做，只係咁地顧念利害得失咋，唔係因為愛我地！唉！真係”哀，莫大於心死”啦！


#9, by amen, 26 April 2010 01:45 AM

人在做，主在看
我心有平安 !

#10, by kone, 26 April 2010 03:17 AM

引用董建華一句話,要退很容易,要留就要有勇氣同承擔。
欣賞海山還有勇氣留下,係人都知佢地想排除異己,咁多動作都係想逼佢走啫
比著好多人,早已一走了之,此地不留人,自有留人處
唉!!!!我都唔支持佢留定想佢走
留:- 就係要教會撥亂反正
走:- 就係對教會一種抗議或死心
大家想佢留定走呢!!!!!!!!!!!!
海山,我支持你那種骨氣,堅持

#11, by hkman77, 26 April 2010 04:46 AM

依場審判大會，真係好似主被買，仲拉左去被一班文士、法利賽人面前被審、定罪、鞭打情景差唔多！

#12, by huduanderen, 26 April 2010 04:47 AM

王上
21:1 這事以後，又有一事。耶斯列人拿伯在耶斯列有一個葡萄園，靠近撒馬利亞王亞哈的宮。
21:2 亞哈對拿伯說：「你將你的葡萄園給我作菜園，因為是靠近我的宮；我就把更好的葡萄園換給你，或是你要銀子，我就按著價值給你。」
21:3 拿伯對亞哈說：「我敬畏耶和華，萬不敢將我先人留下的產業給你。」
21:4 亞哈因耶斯列人拿伯說「我不敢將我先人留下的產業給你」，就悶悶不樂地回宮，躺在床上，轉臉向內，也不吃飯。
21:5 王后耶洗別來問他說：「你為甚麼心裏這樣憂悶，不吃飯呢？」
21:6 他回答說：「因我向耶斯列人拿伯說：『你將你的葡萄園給我，我給你價銀，或是你願意，我就把別的葡萄園換給你』；他卻說：『我不將我的葡萄園給你。』」
21:7 王后耶洗別對亞哈說：「你現在是治理以色列國不是？只管起來，心裏暢暢快快地吃飯，我必將耶斯列人拿伯的葡萄園給你。」
21:8 於是託亞哈的名寫信，用王的印印上，送給那些與拿伯同城居住的長老貴冑。
21:9 信上寫著說：「你們當宣告禁食，叫拿伯坐在民間的高位上，
21:10 又叫兩個匪徒坐在拿伯對面，作見證告他說：『你謗瀆　神和王了』；隨後就把他拉出去用石頭打死。」
21:11 那些與拿伯同城居住的長老貴冑得了耶洗別的信，就照信而行，
21:12 宣告禁食，叫拿伯坐在民間的高位上。
21:13 有兩個匪徒來，坐在拿伯的對面，當著眾民作見證告他說：「拿伯謗瀆　神和王了！」眾人就把他拉到城外，用石頭打死。
21:14 於是打發人去見耶洗別，說：「拿伯被石頭打死了。」
21:15 耶洗別聽見拿伯被石頭打死，就對亞哈說：「你起來得耶斯列人拿伯不肯為價銀給你的葡萄園吧！現在他已經死了。」
21:16 亞哈聽見拿伯死了，就起來，下去要得耶斯列人拿伯的葡萄園。
21:17 耶和華的話臨到提斯比人以利亞說：
21:18 「你起來，去見住撒馬利亞的以色列王亞哈，他下去要得拿伯的葡萄園，現今正在那園裏。
21:19 你要對他說：『耶和華如此說：你殺了人，又得他的產業嗎？』又要對他說：『耶和華如此說：狗在何處舔拿伯的血，也必在何處舔你的血。』」
21:20 亞哈對以利亞說：「我仇敵啊，你找到我嗎？」他回答說：「我找到你了；因為你賣了自己，行耶和華眼中看為惡的事。
今天感恩的是山哥不是生活在亞哈時代，不然早已被那二十幾個作見證控告海山的人用石頭打死了，今天似乎所有條件都合那些人的要求，就只是沒有殺人的權柄，好在現在也不是羅馬人的時代，不然，他們也可借羅馬人的手釘海山十字架，雖然海山哥不是主，大家不必將他對號入座，我只是想表達這種情形，還有他們不准那些之前廣東話團的弟兄姊妹入去旁聽和交待，將他們看作外人，完全表現了教會是他們的，不是主的，似乎這些b/s不是肢體了，就如同當年將人趕出會堂的法利賽人，這句類似意思的話大家應該聼過：“官長或是法利賽人豈有信他的呢？但這些不明白律法的百姓是被咒詛的！」”。
但最可悲的是今天教會中的長老們連一個尼哥德慕都沒有：“內中有尼哥德慕，就是從前去見耶穌的，對他們說：「不先聽本人的口供，不知道他所做的事，難道我們的律法還定他的罪嗎？」”。
真是可悲，原來現在tcog長老作的事，不過是重復過往亞哈和法利賽人做的事。
但可惜我們這些百姓又不可拿石頭去打他們。
#13, by fishoil, 26 April 2010 05:56 AM


大家想佢留定走呢!!!!!!!!!!!!
海山,我支持你那種骨氣,堅持


他們太過份了！
海山哥、美玉姐，保重身體、精神、和心靈。他們用不着你們，外面教會等著你們，有很多人的靈魂需要你們，願主引導和帶領你們到可安歇的水邊。


#14, by kiva, 26 April 2010 06:00 AM


他們打倒異己用了歪理，用了莫須有的罪名，指黑為白，似是而非，且已油蒙了心眼，將謬理當作真理，簡直没有申辯的機會。



#15, by hkman77, 26 April 2010 07:34 AM

當神經教會掌門人余光超，被馬意奮篤爆假借神向佢發建造教會異像係講大話之後！
依個余光超就發難喳除去馬、鍾、方長老之名，仲步署公審海山兄！
依D禁既行為既余光超，與黑社會大佬有乜分別？
不過，依件事更比B/S們知道余光超真實而恐怖既一面！依D就係神經教會愛既行為！
余光超口說敬畏神，行為就與魔鬼之徒一樣！
余光超教人愛神、愛教會！佢就害神、害教會！
神經掌門人余光超管理神經教會！神經教會騙人行神經教導！
神經人所篇頌的甜美日程，就是要人與他一樣偏行神經道理！






#17, by truelies, 26 April 2010 10:22 AM
澄清: Fish 是有留在整個聚會中，只是向在門外守候的b/s要求下交代三四句而已...

梁偉強在攔阻b/s進內時被問及他今天作的事是否憑良心，他理直氣壯的回答他完全過得到他的良心。其實他良心何在？

士培有人性一些，最少他在門外肯聽前廣東話b/s舉出對教會的問題。其實從外地來溫的長老都不清楚溫發生的事。還有他們大部份是應聲虫，根本無能力改變任何事!





#18, by truelies, 26 April 2010 10:35 AM
華昌連自己的家事都未搞清，還出來代表教會執行公義??? 他無資格!



#19, by lightofmorningsun, 26 April 2010 12:05 PM

昨天的“審判會”我親眼見證了。非常感慨! 感想如下：

1. 如果是為了拯救海山弟兄，為什么實現沒有通知“被拯救”的弟兄去聆聽“拯救”的信息呢？說不是審判會，為什么聲聲都是指責和批評？

2.教會經常說自己是行在神心意里的教會，但這次他們的做法會絆倒很多初信的弟兄姐妹。圣經上說，絆倒人的有禍了！

3.余弟兄等等態度強硬，讓人寒心+絕望！

4. 在各個門口把守的幾個“黑面”人。。。往日親切的弟兄姐妹如今變得陰森可怕！！

5.為教會侍奉20年30的弟兄姐妹，被攔在門外。都是近50多歲的人了，在外面站著，看著讓人心寒！！

6.教會如果心底無私，怕什么呢？

7.圣經上講，要原諒弟兄70個7次，你們原諒了幾次？海山已經道歉了，為什么還是不能原諒？



本是同根生，相煎何太急！！！！

#20, by teriyaki, 26 April 2010 12:45 PM

首先「原告」變「被告」，審判會 唔可以有「被告」既証人作見証，亦唔可以有「被告」既辯護人發表，未信既人都會知無道理啦！

#21, by truelies, 26 April 2010 01:01 PM
對! 煮豆燃豆萁，豆在釜中泣，本是同根生，相煎何太急???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???

數年前逼走英語弟妹
跟著是廣東話
現在是國語

神阿請快快出手治理!!! 太傷感了...




#22, by truelies, 26 April 2010 01:06 PM
更可怕是Fish當眾說海山沒有証人。其實証人就在門外守候，是他不准他們進入! 這是否他在眾人面前說謊?





#23, by kone, 26 April 2010 01:36 PM

請問桂嫻姐在那裡,有說話嗎

#24, by kone, 26 April 2010 02:44 PM

飲水思源,我們在神的教會長大,許多都聽余弟兄信息大,因此.往往對他的缺點錯失都會包容體諒,咁多年,他真的沒有犯錯嗎,咁完全嗎?無謂在此公審吧!
海山當年是林護大哥哥,牧養保護校內弟妹(包括湘文信蓮),或多或少都有照顧佢地,林護事件,他為保護 d 細嘅(包括湘文信蓮),成為炮灰,理直氣壯同學校對抗,做了一個好榜樣,難道今日對他的缺點錯失就毫無包容體諒,還要公審嗎?
呢件事一開始就係錯,告錯.審錯,甚至判錯,根本就應該理性討論呢個真理,如何行以至有共識,而唔係我投訴你,你投訴我,仲拉d細來表態,你地判他有罪,你地開心嗎?
「你 們 彼 此 告 狀 、 這 已 經 是 你 們 的 大 錯 了 ． 為 甚 麼 不 情 願 受 欺 呢 ． 為 甚 麼 不 情 願 喫 虧 呢 。
本是同根生，相煎何太急！！！

#25, by vancouverjoe, 26 April 2010 02:51 PM

不過講開又講
去到123見到班弟兄姊妹，我反而覺得佢地冇乜喜樂 (只是我的個人感覺，可能佢地好開心同都未定，不過我真係感受唔到)
見到佢地仍然比佢地果個"託付"所困，又沒有出路
而我們就海闊天空.......

#26, by truelies, 26 April 2010 03:32 PM
kone, 桂嫻姐當然在場，有嘗試與門外b/s解釋，但被他們勸止，請她不要插手因為這不是她能力內可做到的事。

我當然不是想在此公審任何一位長老，但他們是帶領，他們所作的，下面的弟妹會看成榜樣，再者我覺得我有責任把事情告訴大家。再退一步，若長老們無能，在逼不得意下，如何可以把惡行顯出來? 不要把作見証當公審好嗎?


#27, by petitmen, 26 April 2010 05:24 PM

現在溫哥華的b/s可分三類,一是無知不知情的b/s＂可憐＂, 二是知情而保余的＂可惡＂，三是還清醒的b/s ＂可走＂。 有耳的就要聽,有腦的就要想。


#28, by godlovelittleone, 26 April 2010 09:40 PM

誰人沒有過犯, 誰可拿起石頭打海山哥哥!
海山哥哥既已為自己技術性(程序性)失誤致歉, 為何掌權者不能彼此認罪, 使教會得醫治? 難道他們真的一點過錯也沒有? Fish 可否當眾站出來聲明他於對妻子、對一起「開創」TCOG之梁志強、對開荒牛之高志強、馬義奮、方偉強、鐘海山等「功臣」、對教會財政管理、對宗派的評擊、對其個人傾則、情緒之控制....這些方面完全是對呢? 是否主耶穌站於 Fish同樣處境也會如此處理呢？Fish 及眾長老有否認真為此事先深深省察自己? 有否禁食祈禱免得入了迷惑而不自知?
正如一個「師奶」姐妹指出, 這事之起源其實是極小的事 (對姊妹在有其他成熟 (長老級)弟兄在場應否「主導」教會祈禱會), 只不過是 Fish 之上述安排權威受到「挑戰」, 結果....... 約10個長老/錦衣衛花$10萬公審海山......試想如此忠誠專心擺上廿多年之好弟兄也容不下, 如此「極小的事」也解決不了, 又怎能誇走合一相愛到底的路? 更談不上與千千万万宗派肢體合一和同心合意興旺福音?
願主在當中鑑察施憐憫...
卑微小子








#29, by truelies, 26 April 2010 11:08 PM

二五事件只是藉口想剷除海山這個眼中釘。為何? 因為海山得人心而又不對他唯命是從，覺得他是一個威脅。

#30, by vancouverjoe, 26 April 2010 11:17 PM
咁都比你知道 !!! haha

#31, by kone, 27 April 2010 12:52 AM

今日有這麼多b/s撐海山,
但可悲是當日缺乏b/s支持的志強哥就..........鬱死了



#32, by towards2lord, 27 April 2010 12:58 AM

他們的關係是否有如掃羅與大衛？掃羅殺死千千，大衛殺萬萬。掃羅妒忌大衛......派大軍追殺大衛。好在有神保守大衛。

#33, by faithon, 27 April 2010 01:24 AM

雖已預知結果是會這樣，但心仍是很痛！

#34, by kiva, 27 April 2010 01:44 AM

結果, 其實大家都預咗! 但是否會比想像中那麼壞!

#35, by bidding, 27 April 2010 02:31 AM

I was a frequent reader of this forum but never posted anything here in the past. But at this moment, my heart felt sooo... complicated and sad on what's happened to Hoi Shan. A full time preacher from now on lost his chance in preaching. It's ironic. And that means he and his family will receive fewer support from B/S in terms of prayers or $ in the coming future. He cannot preach anymore. I worry much about his future.
I left COG for 4 years and I still remember the message that shared by Fish '活在神恩愛海洋中' in 1993. I am deeply impressed by that message. And we are not being judged by God anymore as it's the blood of Jesus covering us. And who can now be our judger other than God? Who can judge Hoi Shan other than God?
I do think Hoi shan is not aiming at splitting b/s nor spreading disputes among COG. But at least upon how the church handles this matter, b/s are separated and possess different views. B/S has grown up and we are not kids anymore that we have our very own views and mindset. We need something reasonable and fairness with compassionate heart.



#36, by faithon, 27 April 2010 02:42 AM

梁偉強在攔阻b/s進內時被問及他今天作的事是否憑良心，他理直氣壯的回答他完全過得到他的良心。其實他良心何在？

梁偉強這樣說也是很理所當然的，只要你認識他的為人，便知他會這樣！！
事例一：當年有弟兄提到教會出的書藉當中有些資料是偏差了，如有關士培寫有關解但以理書中七十個七的計法，梁偉強大大聲的回應說：教會是唔會有錯的，錯的也是你錯吧！
事例二：有弟兄向他表達不明白有關「甜美日程」的信息，梁偉強則回答說，他估不到這些信息沒有顧及到一些程度低的肢體，意思即是「甜美日程」的信息，只有那些程度高的肢體才能明白。
梁偉強當天能這樣回應弟兄提問的，所以他今天能攔阻弟兄姊妹入場，且理直氣壯說完全過得到他的良心，對我來說，一點也不足為奇！！！


#37, by twinkletwinkle, 27 April 2010 02:48 AM

雖已預知結果是會這樣，但心仍是很痛！

是呀！他們一直只在籌備解決異己，並沒有任何跡象顯示出他們會用公義及光明的手法去解決此事！有這樣的教會，害人不淺！
為此教會付出幾十年的弟兄，擺放了不少青春、時間、精神、感情，到最後，竟被它無理對代！實在令人心痛！

不要把聖物給狗、也不要把你們的珍珠丟在豬前、恐怕他踐踏了珍珠、轉過來咬你們。

#38, by sonofgod, 27 April 2010 07:36 AM

我非常遺憾於一月二十九日晚,長執同工會召開前便收到初信時有份牧養我的弟兄,現已為長老的來電,表示如果將他們三人的公開,我會後悔我今天所作的. 那為何不早日告訴我真相,讓我這弟弟早日回頭,少日後悔? 其實,我就是為了我給學生的提醒:活在當下,無悔今天. 才會堅持到如今,否則一是早已反檯,二早已離開了, 那會到今天? 我只是給予日子,讓要回頭的回頭,讓要忍錯的認錯是了.可惜我是極之失望的!
孫

#39, by hkman77, 27 April 2010 07:49 AM

神經教會經過如此不公平審判海山兄，更看到余某人真實既一面，更看到一班余黨打手！
這樣一個人被公審，眾人欺負一人，是神經教會的乜聖經教導？是神經教會中既乜神教導？
看看神經教會幾時公報海山罪狀、罪名後，很定會離開這個聚會了20幾年神經教會！
這是我人生第二次離開教會經歷！(第一次是離開初信主既XX堂)
不知神會如何帶領我，到祂要我可立足教會！

#40, by johnny, 27 April 2010 07:50 AM

我非常遺憾於一月二十九日晚,長執同工會召開前便收到初信時有份牧養我的弟兄,現已為長老的來電,表示如果將他們三人的公開,我會後悔我今天所作的. 那為何不早日告訴我真相,讓我這弟弟早日回頭,少日後悔? 其實,我就是為了我給學生的提醒:活在當下,無悔今天. 才會堅持到如今,否則一是早已反檯,二早已離開了, 那會到今天? 我只是給予日子,讓要回頭的回頭,讓要忍錯的認錯是了.可惜我是極之失望的!
孫

-sonofgod

孫,

這是他們慣用的迷惑大法 36 式之一, 我也用過, 要我 再post出來嗎 ? wink



#42, by jehocs, 27 April 2010 08:27 AM

My 1st time writing something here.. I just discover this forum. I left TCOG (few months already) after knowing Hoi Shan's matter with TCOG. My ability to read Chinese is only 6/10 & hopefully some of you can write in English. From the latest forum, I know Hoi Shan is returning to HK tomorrow & my heart really pray that he'll be greatly comforted my our loving God! His future seems to be uncertain but "Because He Lives, I Know WHO holds the future!" May Hoi Shan, Peter Fong & Peter Ma continue to put their trust in our Saviour!

Yes, I think TCOG handle the whole matter extremely unjustly!!!! And it's not only just this 'case' but previous 'cases' too! (By the way, I've been in TCOG for more than 25 years) By what power & authority can those 'elders' or not even an elder (fish) pass judgement & make this unjustifiable decision of barring a church bro from entering church, from preaching..... I've come across many this similar kind of incidents during this 20 over years! When some b/s done something wrong, they faced consequences almost immediately.. cos it's passed & judged & decided by those 'elders'. Yes, it's the same for Hoi Shan's case, he faced consequences for what 'others' think it's his wrongdoing. But what about 'fish', who dare to pass judgement on him? did he face any consequences for his wrongdoings? Come on, who dare & can say fish is perfect??????

Furthermore, Hoi Shan's wrongdoing does not match the consequences he's receiving!!!! I fullly support him & accept him as my brother-in-Christ & I will respect him as an church elder! Pray that he will be strong in the Lord!

God bless those who support the 3 precious brothers-in-Christ (Hoi Shan, Peter Fong & Peter Ma)!


#44, by vancouverjoe, 27 April 2010 09:27 AM
約12:24 我實實在在的告訴你們，一粒麥子不落在地裡死了，仍舊是一粒，若是死了，就結出許多子粒來。

何況現在死了的不只是一粒呢
弟兄姊妹們，我相信前面將結出的子粒，會多至他們想也想不到

........................................................................................................

加6:7 不要自欺，神是輕慢不得的。人種的是什麼，收的也是什麼。

地上的教會，也是如此



#45, by truelies, 27 April 2010 10:33 AM
回faithon對梁偉強的言論:

我之前是不清楚他為人如果，但現在很清楚了...被稱長老? 哈...無德亦無能...




#46, by lolunsze, 27 April 2010 10:59 AM

『█被稱為長老？根本就係無德無能！』


█無德無能，非也！極可能係邪德邪能！


█值得被人稱為長老嗎？大家不如諗得一清

#47, by criticalthinking, 27 April 2010 11:22 AM

Hi everyone,
I have been reading this forum ever since I read on the internet about what had happened in Seattle a while ago. I didn't want to create an account until I had heard from my best friend who had also left COG in Vancouver recently how heart breaking he/she was when he/she heard that b/s who had been serving in church for 20-30 was not allowed to attend the 2-5事件發佈會. I don’t see how can they not love the ones who they have been praying, serving and even breaking bread with all these years. How can their heart be so hard now that they cannot be moved by the tears of who was once their own.

For myself, I have left COG almost 3-4 years now. I started come to this church because I think that bro/sis there are so nice and pure that there were little(almost none) interpersonal conflict and I think they can practice “ love one and another ” closer to what the bible had described.

The main reason I left was because I have many Christian friends outside of COG as well as my relatives. I was under a strong impression that COG thinks they are the best church available or even to some extreme that one can only truly be saved in COG. I know how hard my other Christian friends to contribute to the God’s kingdom and their believe in God is genuine and logical.

I am not sure when, but around that time, they started to promote “sweet daily living”. It was so hard to accept this idea that one can use body language to be closer to God (to me this is basically what it meant to me). I feel embarrassed to bring my other Christian friends to COG for bread breaking because people will be jumping in the meeting (I am totally fine to go to churches which they like to worship god with dancing and singing, however, I don’ t agree with Fish that the leaping and looking into the sky in front of a large group of people was a mean of worshiping God). At that point, my view was, if this is their way to worship God , then I will just ignore it as long as it doesn’t mean what they believe in is wrong.

However, at times goes by, I realize that it is not acceptable to me that they do not interpret the bible correctly. It is okay to say u don’t understand what God really meant in certain passage of the bible. It is worse to try to come up with a explanation with everything that a person with common sense would think that cannot be understood. Also, when interperting the bible. You need to at least know the language that the bible that was originally written in such that you can have a first hand knowledge what the writer wanted to say. However, COG ‘s oppose to bible colleague education make it impossible for any teacher in COG has the best available tools to discern the bible correctly. For example, Fish suggest that human does not have original sin. At first, I don’t care because I thought that I am saved and it doesn’t concerns me anymore. However, I slowly realized that people in the church doesn’t repent because they think that they are perfect already. I personally do not believe that even after we believe Christians, we became so perfect that we don’t need to reflect ourselves. I just don’t feel comfortable that if I did something wrong in God eyes, I can still communicate with him. I think the process of repent and experiencing the grace of God is a important part of Christian life.

So in the end, I just quietly left the church while my best friend still goes there. I am happy that eventually that he/she also left too and realizing how I had feel a few years back. At times, I still worried about those who have a pure and gentle heart in COG. I hope that one day they will realize and start rationalizing.

Sis in Christ,

DisneyMouse

#48, by vancouverjoe, 27 April 2010 12:10 PM

Hi Sister DisneyMouse
Happy to see your post here.
Just don't worry those pure and gentle hearts B/Ss.
for the Lord's view is not man's; man takes note of the outer form, but the Lord sees the heart.
Hope our Lord leads your way !


#49, by lightofdawn, 27 April 2010 04:04 PM

This is a brilliant post! Bravo!


#51, by sonofgod, 27 April 2010 06:28 PM

各位手足：
海山哥哥已無災無病、安然回港，並比原定時間早約二十分鐘。見其面色較為憔悴，精神方面似乎睡得不太好，引致較為疲累。有幸共晋早餐上完車才走。見他看到有bs有接機也感到很驚奇和開心，這也是我們在他非常時期只能做到的些少行動表達而已。請各位繼續為他們三人和家庭祈禱，求主醫治他們一切的傷處，補足他們一定的缺欠。也希望盡快有裁決，以免使他們三人和家庭受到長時間的煎熬，願神也使他們在患難的日子更經歷神的同在和祝福。至於勞倫斯兄所言，於我來說並不太適合，但我同意Towards2Lord建議不再奉獻，並將個別分享親自交予當時人的手中，如欲避免當時人知道自己分享了多少，可與同邨、附近、相熟的肢體聯系一起分享，並告知是一班關心他們的肢體就行了。至於義奮也可以如此安排，或詢問關注組留下電郵，他們會將義奮的中國銀行電郵給大家。
願神欣賞大家為這家付出的一切。阿們！

孫　




#52, by bidding, 27 April 2010 06:29 PM

"However, I slowly realized that people in the church doesn’t repent because they think that they are perfect already. I personally do not believe that even after we believe Christians, we became so perfect that we don’t need to reflect ourselves. I just don’t feel comfortable that if I did something wrong in God eyes, I can still communicate with him. I think the process of repent and experiencing the grace of God is a important part of Christian life. "
Ya, I agree with your point definitely. Everyone are inspired by that message that we're already perfect and do not need to reflect ourselves. Further, COG thought we are the best among all churches and what they do are 100% correct and perfect. And the consequences are:
1. Proud of ourselves:
2. Self centered
3. not accepting others mindset and thus the heart is ever confined to some one-way views.
And so, it's not surprising how they treat Hoi Shan because they thought they are absolutely correct. Even, if there's any accusation in their heart for consciences sake, it's just like a flash in the mind as these accusations are immediately overcome by the thoughts of perfection.
As such, it seems useless to discuss with the elders or Fish anymore on this matter. Wasting time and make things more complicated. Let's think what we can do / support / help for those 3 elders in the future. Indeed, this incident will give COG a big impact and let's pray for the church.





#53, by jehocs, 27 April 2010 07:31 PM

Thank God Hoi Shan is safely back in HK! May God heal all his painful wounds! May He watch over his family & keep them focus on Him who has the authority over all! God is still in charge!
Yes, TCOG is totally a self-centered church! self-righteous!.... it's all 'self'.... Always think they are the best....after God's will....total obedience to Bible teachings... (when they interpret in their own way & insist it's the right interpretation!), they have their own hymns (think their hymn lyrics is the best too!), their own religious books (written by TCOG members)....soon they might have their own 'bible'???
Glad I have left TCOG )))

#54, by huduanderen, 27 April 2010 07:35 PM

對啊，應該將主給我們的血汗錢供應真正為主的人，不應再給那些吃飽無憂米，而且是上等“餓精你”，好像教皇，又像“毛主席”的人，還有他的手下，一道聖旨就用了弟兄姊妹奉獻給神的十幾万，他們在香港又不見如此熱心，上年有三十個執事和年長的弟兄，聯名要求教會在11-12月處理好山哥和義奮的事，他們不理，有長老私下告訴我他不理海山事件。
現在皇上下旨，就如接到十二金牌的聖旨，急飛溫哥華，卻做些違背良心，違背聖經，違背他們職分的事，要殘害弟兄，要定無辜人的罪，他們拿了弟兄姊妹奉獻給神的神聖祭物，去行不公義，不合理的事，嚴重違背神的性情，如果再奉獻供給他們，豈不是在他們的罪上有份。
請問他們侍奉的是神嗎？或是下聖旨給他們的“教皇”或“主席”呢？
他們配受弟兄姊妹供應嗎？這些長老又有在神的話語上供應弟兄姊妹的心靈嗎？
不然那些餓羊就不會到處找草吃了。
他們拿了那與他們不相配的祭物，就是自己取罪，主必審判。



#55, by bidding, 27 April 2010 07:42 PM

If there's not any 'SELF' matters, I think everything will be much better. We can use others' hymns. We can communicate with other churches. Our heart will be widened. Our life will be more balanced that we also serve our God in terms of family, studies, career , relationships as well as ministries in a more balanced way. And we can impact the community in a more broadened way. We can accept b/s more. We can read spiritual books publicly. At least, our publishments can have a breakthrough. Our worships on Sundays can be improved more despite I appreciate the setting of breadbreaking meeting vy much under COG.


If this 'SELF' could be removed in COG, I am vy eager to come back. But it's a long way to go.



#56, by kfbrother, 27 April 2010 07:50 PM
咁多位愛主既b/s,
其實我想問一問, 教會係唔係用左b/s既奉獻去幫長老攪投資移民? 如果係..一共大約用左幾多錢?
咁就溫哥華事件,林志光有咩回應??




#57, by kongsang, 27 April 2010 10:43 PM

因我不太清楚 2-5事件發佈會的詳情，因此想問以下兩個問題：

1. 這次發佈會有那些長老出席？

2. 海山所謂有錯，又是指什麼呢？



#58, by jehocs, 27 April 2010 11:22 PM

yes, I've the same questions as 'kongsang'. What's is the TERRIBLE sin that Hoi Shan committed that he should be barred from preaching??? And what's the outcome of 26/4 meeting? And by what authority those so-called leaders'' make this decision? Who are the people who govern the church & Vancouver church, how is it being governed? As I know, there's no church elders in Vancouver, no deacons, 'matured' b/s??? Can we rely on such people to take charge of church affairs??? They called themselves 'matured' b/s, but where is their humility??? How can other b/s put their trust in the hands of such 'leaders'?!